Given this was climbed on trad gear, albeit in a very sporty style, should we give it a trad grade?
No, because it wouldn’t be comparable to actual trad routes where the gear is placed in on lead. The route sounds like quite a pitch!
Guess we could follow suit if the media decides to do so, but I feel like it's a little disingenuous to make that leap, given that the grade is mostly defined by the bolted intro.
because it wouldn’t be comparable to actual trad routes where the gear is placed in on lead.
I guess the question I meant to ask was more "should we think of this as a trad route?", with the follow up question being about the grade. I totally agree it is very atypical for a trad route, but you do need trad gear to do it which lends it some trad-ness in my view.
It would then appear near the top of the list of hardest trad routes, Leo would be one of the strongest trad climbers – and I don't think he would make those claims. He's written it up as a sport route.
He's written it up as a sport route.
Perhaps more because of what he's familiar with, and for consistency with the rest of the crag? I guess in his mind the trad gear is basically a bit of faff necessitated by not being able to place bolts in the cave, so he's thinking of it as a sport route waiting for some bolts.
I guess the question is are we saying a trad route is trad because you need trad gear to climb it, or do you need to think about the style in which it is climbed? Like if Crown Royale (E11) had been established on pre-placed gear would we think of it as a sport route? What about some concrete examples like Divided Years (E9) or The Big Issue (E9), both of which had some pre-placed on the first ascents. Im sure John got some flak for poor style, but I don't think anyone suggested they were sport routes.
If someone came along and climbed this in a better, more trad style (i.e. placing the gear on lead) would we call it a trad route then?
I think this is a sport route waiting to be bolted properly, and one day it will be. A bit like The Dewin Stone (9a+).
Im sure John got some flak for poor style, but I don't think anyone suggested they were sport routes.
Adrian Berry did The Big Issue with all preplaced kit, dubbing it Le Big Issue and taking a sport grade. But on the whole, there are loads of trad routes with fixed gear; a couple of pre-placed wires on Divided Years doesn't fundamentally change its character, just makes it easier.
I think this is a sport route waiting to be bolted properly, and one day it will be.
I can get behind this sentiment 👍