Haven’t looked at this too closely but it doesn’t seem like an eliminate to me, not by Cuvier standards anyway. L’Abbatoir and Big Golden are stricter lines, for example. The right hand version of this does look a bit contrived because you could just climb the crack.
If there's 'extra' rules (i.e.beyond the usual bouldering rules) around what's in/out I think it's an eliminate by definition?
I think enough people have done and recorded the different variations that it's worth recording them separately.
I guess the question then is do we need to call abbatoir and big golden eliminates?
Yes I think the versions should be recorded separately, since that’s what Bleau.info do. I don’t think BG and Abbatoir and a dozen others should have the eliminate tag. They’re strict lines but they’re not Pinch 2. They’re also in 7+8, which doesn’t include eliminates.
There are two different lines, but there aren’t extra rules (as far as I can see from the vids and photos). You’d call it eliminate if it was a route, but not if it was a boulder problem (at Cuvier!).
I don’t think BG and Abbatoir and a dozen others should have the eliminate tag. They’re strict lines but they’re not Pinch 2. They’re also in 7+8, which doesn’t include eliminates.
Good shout. Does feel like you'd be opening a bit of a can of worms to start calling classics like that eliminate.
There are two different lines, but there aren’t extra rules (as far as I can see from the vids and photos)
Disagree myself. I think the vids of Nico januel on the OG and Nicki ceria on the droite illustrates it: you do the first move, then it's slap right for the rib or over for another sloper. Given the description for the OG is literally'without the rib', then we're writing up using the rib as a separate easier problem, I think the OG has to be described as eliminate.
TBF it is 'on the low end' of the eliminate scale. Like you say, this is hardly minus 10.
Yeah, the description ‘without the rib’ makes it sound eliminate; but you could also describe it as ‘to the left of the rib’ which wouldn’t sound eliminate and would be accurate.
The perspective in the Nico vid is foreshortened. If you look at the straight-on pic of Charles, the rib is miles away – and he’s got a big span. Thilo found the straight-up easier than boshing out right too. So which line is the eliminate?
https://s3.eu-west-3.amazonaws.com/bleauinfoimages/jean.claude.valluet/Belial01copy.jpg
For me 'to the left of the rib' would imply a line where there is no possibility of using the rib which clearly isn't the case here.
If we're keeping the droite at 8B (there may be an argument for change, I haven't checked people's grade suggestions) then the implication there is it's the easier sequence for a majority of people.
To summarise, I think the eliminate tag becomes a bit meaningless if we're not going to use it on things like this. For a line to not be eliminate you need some idea of "climb the problem via the easiest sequence you can find", and for most people that seems to be using the rib.
Maybe I'm thinking like this because, in my mind, an eliminate is taking an existing line and making it harder by missing out holds. Whereas in this case, the OG line has been made easier via a slight variation (climbing further right), which has then been written up as different problem. Same as what's happened with Big Golden. This might just be Fontainebleau convention though. I guess they don't have the much rock, so have to invent lots of rules to keep it interesting. 😀
I guess they don't have the much rock, so have to invent lots of rules to keep it interesting. 😀
This always intrigues me! But then whenever I come across these kinda things they're inevitably better problems for having an extra rule or two. Those bleausards are obviously just people of exceptional taste.
…the fact that Jérôme Jean-Charles and Thierry Bienvenu chipped Le Carnage because they'd run out rock to climb and there were no more hard problems! 🙄